Who Killed Hariri? The "Pushed Against the Wall" Thesis" as elaborated by Nasrallah and Asad
Who killed Hariri? This is the question that runs through Hassan Nasrallah's interview with al-Hayat. Nasrallah, the leader of Hizbullah, absolves Syria of responsibility, but he also tries to explain the context which led to Hariri's murder. He blames Walid Jumblatt's intransigent refusal to reconcile with the Syrians in December 2004 and join a Hariri government under Lahoud for leading to Hariri's death. It is in this context that Hariri's murder, according to Nasrallah, becomes understandable. In his explanation of the context, Nasrallah elaborates the "Syria Pushed to the Wall" thesis.
The complete Nasrallah interview with al-Hayat is now available in English at (Dar Al-Hayat). T_desco, who has been following the Lebanon wrangle closely, underlines the importance of this interview, because Nasrallah is quite frank about his reading of Syrian-Lebanese relations and their history.
Nasrallah claims that Bashar al-Asad does not want to return to Lebanon to control its affairs as it did in the past. "When I said in an interview that Syria did not want to return to Lebanon in the way that prevailed in the past, I meant it, and I know this," Nasrallah says. All the same Nasrallah is outspoken about his belief that Syria will always have a role in Lebanon. He argues that the present forces who oppose Syria are bad for Lebanese interests because they are determined to overturn the Syrian government, which will only provoke war between the two countries. More importantly, he claims they will lose. Here are his words:
Nasrallah claims his fight is with Junblat and others, less vocal, who want to overturn the Syrian regime with US support. He regrets that an understanding with Syria has been torpedoed. He says:Today, I'm not working to re-introduce Syrian forces in Lebanon, or re-introducing Syrian intelligence here, or Syrian influence. By the way, whether or not we like it, or whether or not others like it, Syria has influence in Lebanon that no one can eliminate, due to what is said about common factors of history and geography, and a network of interests, and the intersection of family and social relations.
There's another goal that we're working for. We reject fighting Syria from Lebanon. We reject seeing Lebanese involved in any project to bring down the Syrian regime. This is dangerous for Syria and Lebanon. Due to Lebanese, national reasons, we believe that any war, in terms of politics, security or the media, not to speak of a military war that some of them want to drag Lebanon into, represents something that is against Lebanese national interests, regardless of the pan-Arab issue, or Israel, or the strategic situation in the region, because it is a losing war, based on all criteria and balances of power. What we're saying today is that in Lebanon, there are those who want to bring down the regime in Syria.
The final attempt, in Jeddah, between King Abdullah bin Abdel-Aziz and President Bashar al-Assad was an attempt to arrange things between Lebanon and Syria, in a way that puts Lebanon at ease, and puts Syria at ease as well, providing an opportunity for the investigation to be concluded. Before anyone knew what happened during this meeting, the attacks began from Lebanon, of course using
language that was less (harsh) than what the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, was subject to. I have the feeling that in Lebanon there are those who don't want any kind of understanding to be reached with Syria, under any consideration, and some of those are the most fearful about revealing the truth about the assassination of Prime Minister al-Hariri.
Nasrallah argues that Hizbullah did not benefit politically from Syria's presence in Lebanon as others parties did.
al Hayat: There are those who say that Hizbullah has a program to see Syrian influence return to Lebanon.Who is responsible for the deterioration of Lebanese-Syrian relations on the eve of Hariri's assassination on February 14, 2005? Nasrallah blames Junblatt and claims that Asad was trying to reconcile with Junblatt. Of course, this is a highly self-interested version because of the recent hostile exchange between Nassrallah and Junblatt, in which the Druze warlord stepped up his campaign against the Shiite warlord, claiming his party's allegiance to Iran and Syria overshadowed its loyalty to Lebanon.
Sayyed Nasrallah (Laughs): First of all, this is a charge that has no evidence behind it. Second, if we take Hizbullah, how has it benefited from the Syrian presence in Lebanon? I'm not talking about the last 30 years, since Hizbullah didn't exist prior to 1982. From 1982 until the present, when Syrian forces exited Lebanon, how has Hizbullah benefited from the Syrian presence in Lebanon? How has Junblatt benefited? Or the many, many others?
Let's talk about the period of Syria's presence in Lebanon. First of all, our presence in state administrations: we don't have any presence. On the contrary, the doors have been closed to us when it comes to the bureaucracy. As for the regions in which we are active, and in which we enjoy a moral and popular influence, deprivation and poverty have increased. We haven't benefited in terms of state positions, or projects, or development, or official political power, or in any domain where others have benefited. Therefore, we have no problem with whoever wants to judge this period; in fact we are comfortable about the topic because we were "outside" (the equation).
Of course, the Syrian presence in Lebanon concerned us in two respects. First, the principal factor involved securing domestic stability, due to the fragility of the situation. Second, this presence constituted a protective shield for the resistance against the Israeli occupation. Therefore, my position on Syria is subject to national and strategic considerations, and not personal calculations, or party-based calculations, or short-term interests. I didn't support Syria in Lebanon because I would receive positions in state administrations, or because it would secure projects for me, or give me a budget to work with, or ministers, or MPs in Parliament. That's how they work. On the contrary, the Syrian committee that used to manage Lebanese affairs up to 2000 would purposely ignore Hizbullah when it came to the Lebanese domestic (political) formula.
Sayyed Nasrallah: There are many such people, including Walid Jumblatt, who call for US troops to occupy Syria and eliminate the regime, like they did in Iraq. This is clear. He has called on the Syrian opposition to receive assistance from outside the country. Walid Jumblatt is distinguished by the fact that he says what he wants. There are others who do things and don't say anything. Don't ask me who these people are; when they say so, I'll tell you. In our opinion, this is dangerous for Lebanon. Today, our problem is that some of them want us to be part of their open war against Syria, and we reject this. The problem isn't that they don't want Syrian influence in Lebanon, while we do. This is not true.
Also, it must be remembered that at the time Nasrallah's attempted reconciliation between Asad and Jumblatt Syria had just extended Lahoud's presidency in contravention to the Lebanese constitution and was trying to impose its will on Hariri and Jumblatt. Hamadeh, Jumblatt's ally, had just been almost killed in an effort to intimidate Junblatt. Here are Nasrallah's words about the atmosphere during the week before Hariri's murder:
I realized that Walid Jumblatt had no serious intention of reconciling with the Syrians, even prior to PM Hariri's assassination, and that Walid Jumblatt had taken the decision to enter into a conflict with this regime. Even so, I believe that what he said at the Bristol was hurtful to me personally, as a mediator, and to Prime Minister al-Hariri, who was enthusiastic about the mediation, and to the Syrians themselves. It was clear, and I can attest to the fact that this was the climate prior to PM Hariri's assassination.Nasrallah even obliquely accuses Jumblatt’s refusal to reconcile with Asad for creating the atmosphere of confrontation with Syria which led to Hariri's death. According to Nasrallah, Rafik al-Hariri was ready to make up with the Syrians after the September 2004 Lahoud extension (which Hariri begrudgingly facilitated). Hariri told Nasrallah in December 2004 that he was prepared to form a government, but only if it included Walid Jumblatt. (Hamadeh was almost killed in October, well before this December effort to bring him back into the Syrian game.) Nasrallah explains:
President al-Assad demonstrated the required positive reaction to overcome the problem with Walid Jumblatt, but Walid Jumblatt insisted on clashing with the regime in Syria. After al-Hariri's assassination, things became more difficult. It was no longer possible to talk about mediation.
We even worked with our Syrian brethren to clarify that the circumstances, and the country's interest, after [Lahoud's] extension, required that Prime Minister al-Hariri form the new government. However, al-Hariri said to me, "I have a problem with forming a government without Walid Jumblatt. In light of the difficult climate between Jumblatt and the Syrians, it will be hard to form a Cabinet. I want you to help me regarding Jumblatt, and his relationship withJumblatt refused to reconcile, having already committed himself to UN Resolution 1559 and the Franco-American effort to yank Lebanon out of Syria's sphere of influence and into their own. According to Nasrallah, this is the key to the context of Hariri's assassination.
the Syrians.
The logic of Nasrallah's history and explanation could also be used to explain why Syria killed Hariri, even though Nasrallah insists on pointing the finger variously at Israel, al-Qa'ida, or other obscure anti-Syrian and anti-"resistance" forces. Here is my reading: Syria believed that Lahoud is the key to its grip on Lebanon and its interests there so Bashar extended Lahoud's presidency, despite US and French admonitions not to. Hariri was willing to re-enter the circle of Syrian domination, despite his humiliation at the hands of Bashar over the Lahoud affaire, but only if Jumblatt would also reconcile with Syria and join his government. Jumblatt refused, going over to the dark side. Hariri begins to go over to the dark side with Junblatt. Syria takes him out. In Nasrallah's "resistance" logic, this is not really Syria's fault, but Jumblatt’s. Syria, which, in Nasrallah's view, still stands for "pan-Arab" interests, has been pushed to the wall by the West. Anyone who joins this pressure becomes a "traitor" and plays with fire. Thus, it is not Syria (even if it pulled the trigger) but the forces alligned against Syria who are the real assassins.
Bashar al-Asad has tried to bolster this line of reasoning. In an interview last October 7 with Jihad El Khazen, Asad claimed that France and the US had already made the decision to gin up a Security Council Resolution against Syria's presence in Lebanon as early as June 2004. Thus Lahoud's extension was a defensive move to fortify Syria's team in Lebanon and not an aggressive initiation of the tit for tat war that resulted in Hariri's murder. Here is how al-Khazen summarized his two-hour interview with Bashar al-Asad:
President al-Assad links the extension of President Emile Lahoud's mandate to the battle in which France and the US joined forces against Syria, each for its own reasons. The White House is pressuring to rein in the Syrian position regarding the US military presence in Iraq and the confrontation with Israel. France found itself in a big political dispute with the US and decided to offer Syria as a price for reducing the harshness of Washington's position against Paris.This is the "pushed to the wall" thesis that both Bashar and Nasrallah elaborate. The death of Hariri becomes "objectively" not Syria's fault because Syria was defending itself along with higher Arab interests against a plot by the Israeli oriented West and their minions in Lebanon. This is the logic that Asad is selling to Syrians. This explains why Asad accuses the Israelis of murdering Hariri and may actually believe it at some metaphysical level. More importantly, it is why so many Middle Easterners accept the logic. They believe it at some deeper psychological level, which helps them avow Asad's technical innocence.
*The agreement over Syria between President George Bush and President Jacques Chirac began in Normandy in June 2004, when the extension hadn't yet been raised. When the Syrians heard in roughly August that the two countries were preparing a Security Council Resolution against Damascus and its interests, extension became possible.
The Manichean struggle between Israel and the Arab World, in which both sides claim to be "existentially" threatened, has unraveled ordinary morality. Murder gets swept into a larger allegorical reading of light and darkness. As the cosmic logic of good and evil takes over, murder becomes "collateral damage" and we enter into the twilight zone of myth in which human actions lose their meaning in the face of contending Gods. The ends justify the means. Higher principles, such as Arabism/, Islam or democracy/ freedom trump smaller ones, such as murder.
Unfortunately, Arab leaders and their followers are not the only ones to do this.
106 Comments:
It is time to move on, and move the clock forward in all Arab states, especially Syria.
It is not important who killed Hariri, or the others, though it was the syrian regime for sure, but what is important is to free Syria and the Syrian people from oppression that has lasted over 4 decades. Enough is enough, and we don't need a liberal American to tell us what we need as human beings with Syrian nationality or background. This man, Joshua landis wants other human beings to submit to a dictatorship, he himself can never accept to live under.
As far as Nassrallah is concerned, this man is a thug and a terrorist by all definitions. the Assad regime and the Iranian one, being sectarians with a hidden agenda to promote Shiites in the area, have insisted on elevating HA to become a national liberation movement that used to shoot few shots every while on Israel, and then claimed to have liberated South lebanon. no one outside of the Shit (Shia) was allowed to participate in the so called "liberating South Lebanon". Only the Shits were allowed to be members of that terrorist gang.
Nassrallah is on the wrong side of history, he and his supporters will be crushed soon, and their sectarian game will be exposed to all of the people to see.
Joshua Landis is trying hard to save the Assad regime, and along that , to save Nassrallah, and the Iranians. All of them will be going to hell very very soon.
WOW! Pascal (or whoever you are), you've really outdone yourself here
"As far as Nassrallah is concerned, this man is a thug and a terrorist by all definitions."
"no one outside of the Shit (Shia)"
You sir, are lower than Sharon and are more dangerous than the professed enemies of Islam and Arabs. If you are an Arab (or Shibh-Arab) then all I can say is shame on you. Your existence is a disgrace to us all.
Joshua Landis:
It is truly puzzling as to what makes you in love with criminals of the size of the Assad and his gang? I can not believe how you try so hard to help them> All of their crimes in Syria, Lebanon, iraq, and Palestine/Israel do not count for you?
What type of a person are you? I can not believe that a "professor" who has studied history can side with criminal elements who have massacred thousands and destroyed more lives while enriching themselves and living the most luxurious life world over??
How can you be such a thug, yourself? It is almost unblievable.
Here you agree that Syria (meaning Assad) may have triggered the bullet itself that killed Hariri, but you try to find excuses for this crime, and give those criminals an excuse. How can a person with "knowledge" behave like you, espcially that you did not grow up in that kind of an atmosphere?
You are defending Assad as "defending the Arab interests", but you fail to understand that the only interest Assad is defnding is his criminal behaviour and his regime to stay for ever on the chests of the Syrians.
You are helping criminals do crimes. You should be ashamed of yourself, but obviously you feel nothing of that sort. You are proud that you are on their side, the side of oppression, and retarded minds.
JAM
What Nasrallah and by association HA insist on confusing, because it is self serving, is the diffrence between having Syrian influence in Lebanon that eminates from geographical proximity, shared historical experiences, overlapping cultural propensities, common regional priorities and subservient relationships dictated by only one party and illeberal undemocratic nonsecular rule.
I don't believe any person in Lebanon is asking the Syrians for anything besides their fundamental obligation to respect their neighbour and not to attempt to dictate policies. A true dialectical relationship consists of a two way street and not a total hegemony by one party.
The weakness of the Syrian Ba'ath position is amplified by the contradictions in most, maybe even all, its positions. They claim to be the vanguards of resistance when they have made sure that not one shot is fired from the Golan heights, their economic and social performance is one of the worst in the world, they issue threats as if they are a major power when their only strategic ally is equally ostracized by the international community. I believe that they have evolved into becoming another N. Korea. and nobody wishes to be in the orbit os such a bankrupt regime.
HA have benefited from the Syrian tutelage over Lebanon tremendously and for Mr. Nasrallah to deny that is the height of being disingenous. The Syrians have allowed arms to flow from Iran and they have closed their eyes on the training by the Iranian revolutionary guards in Lebanon. And let us not forget the fact that it is looking more likely every day that the Sheba'a farm was nothing short of a hoax perpetrated by the Syrian regime and HA on the international community. Mr. Nasrallah has got to stop his deception and obfuscation.
It is VERY important to know who killed Hariri and the others and to be brought to justice so these killers will think twice before killing innocent people because they (killers) will get the proper punishment!
The Asad mafia regime is just trying to extend its control over the Syrian people. Sooner or later, the Syrian people will overthrow the dictator and his family and Syria will become a free democratic country.
They were pushed to the wall, and ------------> they had to kill Hariri. poor killers!
No sir; The father of this yound semi Western Educated criminal, the late big criminal Hafez Assad assassinated so many big Syrian and lebanese personalities in Syria, lebanon, Jordan, Germany, and France, and "He was not being pushed to the wall at the time of those assassinations".
Criminals do not need an excuse. They are what they are, and no excuse on Earth can justify the killing of anyone, lest it be the wonderful, ex prime minister of Lebanon, Hariri.
JAM
Assad killed Hariri thinking he would be one more assassinated "sob" as all of those his father had assassinated, and he himself caused their "suicides".
All these melodrama because we are asking fo!
Hariri was not a clean politician, but he had a good soul. He he was loved by a lot of Lebanese and never harmed anybody. Even when Syria occupied Lebanon, I never hated the guy, though I didn't like his politics. We demand justice for him and this Nasrallah
It amuses me to hear Nasrallah speak about familial to Syria, when his community has none. The ones that have familial relation to Syria are the orthodox and the SUnnis, and both are opposed to Syria's influence today.
Nasrallah will end at Guantanamon where he belongs.
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Dr. Landis,
Let me get this straight:
You have finally joined the camp of “Syria takes him out”. Welcome on board.
Regrettably, this is where logic and reason starts and ends. What you want us to believe is that although Syria took out Hariri, this was not “objectively” their fault. How so?
Here is a summary of your thought process:
1- Bush’s White House wants to rein in the Syrian position regarding the US military presence in Iraq and the confrontation with Israel.
2- France decides to offer Syria as a price for reducing the harshness of Washington’s position against Paris.
3- The decision to gin up a SCR 1055 is born as early as June 2004
4- Syria learns this and decides to extend Lahoud’s term as a defensive move.
5- Hariri was ready to make up with Syria but only if Jumblatt in included.
6- Jumblatt refuses and Hariri opts out
7- Syria takes Hariri out because it was pushed to the wall
8- Syria did kill Hariri but it was not its fault as it was defending itself along with higher Arab interests against a plot by the Israeli oriented West and their minions in Lebanon.
9- This is why Asad is accusing the Israelis of murdering Hariri.
10- Asad believes this at some deeper psychological level, which helps Syrians avow Asad’s technical innocence.
11- Murder is collateral damage in this Manichean struggle between Israel and the Arab world.
12- Arab leaders and their followers are not the only one to do this. Proponents of democracy/freedom also use these higher principles to trump murder.
This is the most preposterous posting by you yet. Your liberal leanings and hatred of conservatives and the Bush administration is destroying your credibility. Your hate for your own President and your country’s foreign adventures is very clear and is of course your prerogative. But to express your hate by concocting or agreeing with this absurd and ridiculous train of thought is absurd and sad. Incidentally, why did you think it was therefore Jumblatt that objectively killed Hariri? You should have taken your circular logic right to point number and to where you started this absurd journey: the White House.
"Here is my reading: Syria believed that Lahoud is the key to its grip on Lebanon and its interests there so Bashar extended Lahoud's presidency, despite US and French admonitions not to. Hariri was willing to re-enter the circle of Syrian domination, despite his humiliation at the hands of Bashar over the Lahoud affaire, but only if Jumblatt would also reconcile with Syria and join his government. Jumblatt refused, going over to the dark side. Hariri begins to go over to the dark side with Junblatt. Syria takes him out. In Nasrallah's "resistance" logic, this is not really Syria's fault, but Jumblatt’s. Syria, which, in Nasrallah's view, still stands for "pan-Arab" interests, has been pushed to the wall by the West. Anyone who joins this pressure becomes a "traitor" and plays with fire. Thus, it is not Syria (even if it pulled the trigger) but the forces alligned against Syria who are the real assassins."
Josh, I'm shocked at your reading! I am puzzled at how you depict the decision to oppose Syrian tutelage and get out of the circle of Syrian influence as "moving to the dark side". I also don't understand how you can absolve the Syrian regime of "pulling the trigger" and killing Hariri (and I"m sure all the others who followed suit) by giving us some strategic justification or the so-called, "pushed to the wall" thesis. So...in your reading, it's Jumblatt's fault that all this has been happening in Lebanon? Wow! Never knew he's that powerful!
I always read your work, but this post has just taken your sympathetic stances towards the Syrian regimes and its allies in Lebanon way far, to another level.
Doha:
Dr. Landis is interpreting what Nasrallah said. That's the context of the text you quoted. Reread it.
I think Mehlis' successor, don't know his name should now read this post, and start investigating Junblat for this crime that he committed by the logic above.
I am wondering if this will be accepted by the court system. I heard of similar defenses before from US courts: the devil made me do it!
The devil is now "junblat" according to Landis, but this Junblat did not really make Syrians kill Hariri by telling them "Kill Hariri". he did it by pushing them to the wall.
May be this defense will work. I am not a legal expert, but in our world , full of crazies, this might work. I don't know that it won't. It just may work.
"Doha:
Dr. Landis is interpreting what Nasrallah said. That's the context of the text you quoted. Reread it.
"
true, but he wrote it in a very obscure way, so he could defend himself and claim that he was only citing or understanding what Nassralh said, at the same time he was pushing this theory to us, the readers.
Syrian pride, like Lebanese pride?
Gay pride?
Ugarit
Nassrallah can and will say anything. I don't think that you can characterize Dr. Landis's post as a mere interpretation.
On another note, is it not interesting how Nassrallah and Dr. Landis conveniently forgot to mention the single biggest benefit that he received from Syria?
Could he enlighten us as to how he accumulated his impressive arsenal of
weaponry?
Do the direct flights from Iran to Damascus airport ring a bell?
I thought in this post Josh was trying to clarify the rational Nasrallah & co are selling the world. And if this post is seen as a description of what Nasrallah and Bashar have been saying, it strikes me as sensible. There is, if you agree with my reading of the post then, no obvious attempt at value judgements.
In other words, I suspect Josh does not seem to have given his personal view on what he thinks: The judgemental question should be whether Josh believes what Narsallah and Bashar are selling. Does he really believe Syria today is the (last) paragon of Arabism struggling against Goliath?
If he does not believe what Narsallah and Bashar are saying in conferences and on TV, then he might have something else in mind.
Okay,
So, we are asked to believe that Dr. Landis does not really believe this whole circular logic but he was merely helping us understand it. He thought that we were too ignorant to be able to interpret Nasrallah’s words at face value and was therefore just breaking it down for us.
Dr. Landis:
If this is not your own position, what do “you” actually believe? Your swipe at your own President and his policies was most telling if one reads your conclusion:
“Unfortunately, Arab leaders and their followers are not the only ones to do this”.
In other words, people who are using the high principles of democracy/freedom also do trump murder.
Bush’s White House, are you listening?
You kill in the name of democracy just as Arabs do for theor own principles.
An important proportion of humanities and social scholars today are taught, ad nauseum, and from day one to distinguish between value judgements and positive, i.e. value free, descriptive thinking.
Unless Josh explcitely says it, it will be hard to pin down when he is making a value judgement. (The game can quickly turn into cat and mouse or the chiken and the egg, as you prefer.)
EHSANI2:
"Bush’s White House, are you listening?
You kill in the name of democracy just as Arabs do for theor own principles."
One can hardly think that Bush and Co. actually believe in or know what democracy is. Let's not be so naive.
So Hareri wanted to deal with Syria ,Junblat stood in the way so Syria killed Hareri shouldn,t they have killed Junblat who does not have as much suport or armed car wouldn,t that make more sence,the story is made up to implicate Syria ,what is more logical is that Junblat told his masters about Hareri,s intentions so they killed him and blamed Syria.
I sense from Dr. Landis' posting that he thinks that Assad is somehow directly or indirectly involved in the assassination of Harriri but Nasarallah and Assad are somehow mentally blocking themselves from actually believing it. In other words they're in denial.
I paraphrased Josh’s conclusion above. Admittedly, I did so a little liberally.
norman:
It seems logical then that Jum(n)blat killed Hariri. Perhaps that would explain why he is so anti-Assad. But logic does'nt mean the truth.
He is anti Syrian all along and when Hareri wanted to deal with Syria he killed him and is using the crime to his own benifet.
Those deceitful Assadists always want the readers to confuse enemity to the Syrian regime with enemity to Syria.
I am looking forward to the day when you will all be hung by your testicules. If you are women, then it is ok to use bullets.
assadists = scums.
NEWS,KFC is open in Syria and popular with the Syrians and Makhlof does not own it .may be free market is coming to Syria after all.
"Let me get this straight:
You have finally joined the camp of “Syria takes him out”. Welcome on board."
Ehsani, Dr. Landis knew the truth from day 1. He just don't want to write it because he thinks that the Truth will hurt Syria.
"Jumblatt's intransigent refusal to reconcile with the Syrians in December 2004 and join a Hariri government under Lahoud for leading to Hariri's death"
Haha! Well I got news for this Nasrallah traitor. Maybe it wasn't Jumblat who was responsible for the, but the guys that actually planted the bomb. You could as well blame Hariri's assassination on Hariri, because you see, the guy didn't want to be a puppet anymore.
One of the propagandists for Assad said this :
"NEWS,KFC is open in Syria and popular with the Syrians and Makhlof does not own it .may be free market is coming to Syria after all."
How long will you prefer to live in hope that this young inheritor of a country will do something?
Why doe he keep innocent prisonners in prison, you scum>?
Norman,
Please cut it out.
Do you know how 100% of the cigaretts are sold in Syria?
Assume that only 10% of Syria's population smokes one pack a day.
This is 2 million packs a day. Since they sell for about $1 each, total revenue IS $ 2 million a day. Wholesale importers pay close to 10 cents a pack. Let us assume that another 15 cents in transportation and other admin costs are incurred. This leave a net profit of $ 1 million per day. The Government treasury receives no tax revenues whatsoever. The Government does not arrest a single peddler or seller of these cigarattes which are displayed on every street corner in the country. How and why does the Government allow this to happen? Who is this lucky man making a $1 million a day 365 days a year?
We will leave the answer to the question to the imagination of the readers.
When you and I can also sell cigarettes on the streets of Damascus and Aleppo then the free market is coming to Syria.
Ehsani2:
You just copied the cigarrettes equation from the internet!
LOL
where? I would actually be interested to see it. I had been discussing this on every visit to Syria.
I would appreciate the link actually
No, no, I am just making fun at the idiot who had told you so earlier.
Now I get it. I am still waiting for the proof of my pasting capabilities.
Ehsani2 ,you are telling me that wholesalers pay 10 cents per pack in Syria and they do not pay taxes and we pay almost six to seven dollars per pack,i think the theives are in our beloved land the good old USA and it,s tax thirsty goverment.by the way i do not want to sell an instrument of death to Syrians then may be that is why it is so cheep there (subsidised by the enemies of the syrian people).
Governments heavily tax Tobacco and alcohol. It is actually smart public policy. The thinking is that if you want to harm yourself and drain the public’s medical care resources, you ought to pay for it in extra taxes levied at the point of consumption. Europe and the U.S. do tax these items precisely for these reasons. In Syria, one person walks away with the profit, the Government collects zero tax revenues and its citizens as well as its medical system get all the great benefits of smoking.
I must say it: I am glad that Hariri did not survive the attack.
You see, Hariri was responsible for his own murder. That means that if he had survived the attack, we would have been forced to arrest him and judge him for attempted murder on his own person.
I am not saying that this is logical, I am only trying to think like Joshuah.
LOL, well, that is funny.
Ehsani,i would have never expected you to be for using taxes as a way os social engineering and a behaivier chang method ,as you know our goverment does not put the taxes that it collects on cigaretts and alcohol in the health care system of this country ,i agree with you people should not smoke or drink alcohol but the insurece companies who pay for their health care can charg them more than non smokers or alcohol drinkers becaues as you well know that the govement does not pay in the US for universal axcess to health care and i agree with that but that is to discus another time.
All of you who are getting so worked up:
It is clear to me that Joshua is trying to describe what he understands as Bashaar's and Nasrallah's thinking. It is their justification for the Hariri assassination he describes, not his own. I'm sure if you read his posting almly and carefully, putting aside your already established beliefs that he is out to save the regime, you will see this is the case. And those of you, whether pro or anti regime, when you get illogical and start screaming and swearing, you make yourselves ridiculous.
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Norman, you know damn well that the US tax alcohol and tobacco because it's bad for your health. Stop using every pretext to bash this country.
Le Figaro: (link at the bottom)
"Les alaouites ont peur de perdre le pouvoir en Syrie
Proche-Orient- Principal soutien du régime de Bachar el-Assad, la minorité alaouite, qui redoute des règlements de comptes en cas de changement de régime, cherche des alternatives face à un pouvoir dont elle critique la faiblesse.
Georges Malbrunot
[23 janvier 2006]
Le président syrien Bachar el-Assad a déclaré samedi que son pays était favorable à une «coopération totale» dans les limites de sa «souveraineté» avec la commission d'enquête internationale de l'ONU sur l'assassinat du dirigeant libanais Rafic Hariric. Il a accusé des parties libanaises d'avoir rejeté des initiatives pour améliorer ces relations, notamment celle de l'Arabie saoudite. "
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20060123.FIG0087.html?094253
Well said Qunfuz, but unfortunately you're attempt to make civilized conversation out of this comment section will be in vein, its hopeless.
I am very disappointed by this article in Parade magazine. According to the article, Bashar assad of Syria ranks only as the worst 16th dictator in the world. I really thought he was number 1, but I was wrong, and must concede to his supporters such as "innocent-Criminal" aka tarek, aka BloodyDamascene, etc...and apologize for being so wrong.
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_01-22-2006/Dictators_11_to_20
Syria is only 16th, far from being number 1 in dicatorship world rank. It really seemed number 1 to me, but hey..
JAM
Criminal-innocent said this: " but unfortunately you're attempt ".
Where is your other nick, BloodyDamascene to correct English for you?
Hey, but I love how they described Bashar Assad in the article. This is way better than what Joshua Landis described him and his queen Antonitte:
16. Bashar al-Assad, Syria
Age 40. In power since 2000. Last year’s rank: 14
A former ophthamology student, in 2000 Bashar inherited power from his father, who had ruled Syria for 29 years. Recently the Syrian government has received international condemnation for its presumed involvement in the assassination of the ex-prime minister of neighboring Lebanon. In Syria itself, “emergency rule” has been in effect since 1963. Amnesty International has documented 38 different types of torture that have been used in Syria in recent years.
Josh,
This is a very intriguing analysis trying to make sense of the Syrian and Arab support for Bashar.. though I don't agree that this is the whole picture.. it's part of it for sure.
I agree that a considerable part of the Arab and Syrian people (even those who believe that he did kill Hariri) support Assad now or "avow Asad's technical innocence" for the psychological logic of "what else he could of done?!" (the "pushed to the wall thesis"). But there is also the a very large (larger?!) portion of the Syrian and Arab public (including a considerable bunch of pro-Syria Lebanese) that genuinely don't believe that Syria killed Hariri. Some of these people do not believe it because they are brainwashed by pure conspiracy theories fed to them by Arab dictatorships that throw all bad things on Israel or the US (the same way many Lebanese are brainwashed to think that if it rained while they are tanning on the beach then it's Syria's fault). Others don't believe that it's Syria based on more logical analysis.
As for Nasrallah, personally, I don't think that he knows who killed Hariri, I think that he gave it a 50 - 50 chance at the beginning that it was Syria and this is why he supported Junblat up until December 2004. Later on though he started tending towards the possibility that it was not Assad, specially after the not-so-convincing Mhelis "proofs" and after Junblat started the "bring down the terrorist regime" campaign. When Junblat decided to submit totally to the US/Israeli demands of going to get Hizballah in return of him becoming the leading US ally in Lebanon (as he was once one of the leading Syrian tools in Lebanon for decades), Hizballah saw the picture differently. For Junblat, after the new lords of Lebanon finalize their influence over their new land he would receive his price in political and financial terms (again as he used to do with the ex-lords of Lebanon).
It is interesting to see the way the sectarian Lebanese mind work. For example, Hizballah is the only party with no Lebanese blood on its hand (unlike the extremely bloody past of Junblat, Jeajea, Aoun, Berri and other warlords who committed crimes against humanity where Lebanese were the victims). Nonetheless, these warlords are glorified (sometimes to sainthood status) by followers from their sect. At the same time these same Lebanese who glorify them would hate the only party that have no Lebanese blood on its hand and was able to liberate its country successfully.. and describe it as a terrorist organization, just because this party does not "hate enough" the side that they consider an enemy!
Unfortunately, in Lebanon patriotism is not defined using a single standard. It is defined in terms of serving your sect's interest. A patriot in Lebanon is defined by his/her hate to someone rather that his love and services to the country. For example, for a big part of the Lebanese, the benchmark of patriotism is "how much do you hate Syria" (mostly Christians)? For the Shiites in the other hand (the majority of Lebanese people), it's "how much do you hate Israel?". It does not matter how much you love or serve you country or how many Lebanese have you massacred.. your patriotism would always be judged by your sect's base on the basis of your hate to "the enemy". For example, Michel Aoun was considered for decades by most Christians in Lebanon as the ultimate Lebanese patriot because he was the only one who continued to oppose the Syrian control over Lebanon. NOW, after his seemingly new alliance with Hizballah, he is losing support in the Christian street so fast that Christian journalists have started to grill him in media interviews for not hating Syria enough. Lahoud is another interesting example, he was supported in the beginning by Christians until they discovered that he was not "patriot" enough (i.e does not "serve his sect" -not his country mind you- and does not "exercise hate" to Syria). These two examples (Lahoud and Auon) are the least sectarian of the Christians, but their support (or lack of it) is based on their exercising the "hate degree".
Unlike the Lebanese politicians and warlords, Hizballah is an ideological entity not a political one.. yet! This is their first test in politics in Lebanon and they are still learning. Junblat in the other hand is the one of the most professional politicians and the least ideologue (though he uses his socialist ideology as a tool to manipulate the masses). A Lebanese intellectual once told me that: "If you want to know who would be in control in Lebanon in 6 months time then look at who is Junblat siding with at the moment". The guy has an extraordinary ability to sense and analyze power struggles and switching alliances to the strongest and offer his services in return of political gains.
"The Manichean struggle between Israel and the Arab World, in which both sides claim to be "existentially" threatened, has unraveled ordinary morality. Murder gets swept into a larger allegorical reading of light and darkness. As the cosmic logic of good and evil takes over, murder becomes "collateral damage" and we enter into the twilight zone of myth in which human actions lose their meaning in the face of contending Gods. The ends justify the means. Higher principles, such as Arabism/, Islam or democracy/ freedom trump smaller ones, such as murder. Unfortunately, Arab leaders and their followers are not the only ones to do this."
.. regardless of who killed Hariri, I don't think that anyone could describe the ME situation more eloquently than this on Hariri, Baqer Hakim, Ahmad Yasin, Arafat, Karami, Kamal Junblat,..etc!
By the way on a totally different story, can anyone explain to me the Baha' Hariri dilemma? Why it was always Baha' in the picture at the beginning of the Hariri (Abu Baha') affaire and then all of the sudden Saad was parachuted into the scene? Why his aunt MP Bahyia too is kept out of the picture all of the sudden? Was it an internal family power struggle? Are there 2 different perspectives in the Hariri family in the way that the "revenge" should be taken? Is it that the family is not in 100% agreement on who actually did it? Or is it just a safety net used by the Hariris to guarantee they would not lose it all publicly if it turned out that it was not Syria (or if it was not possible to convict it at the end)?
In her speeches, Bahia always kept her tone low and reasonable in her criticisms and accusations to Syria. I'm really interested in knowing why is she not responding to the Hussam and Jarjoura claims that they were "forced to tell her lies"? Why both insisted on mentioning her if they are lying? If they were really pushed to give a false testimony.. was she then not convinced that it was Syria from the beginning? Is Hamade/Junblat pushing an agenda? Is Sa'ad gone too far for the rest of the Hariris in his revenge pursuit?
Any light on the Baha' / Bahyia issue would be appreciated.
Vox and Jam... do your thing!
Idaf:
It is not true you analyze facts only.
You have a thesis and you search for every single piece of evidence that justifies it. I amfine with that, we all do it, but you are then like many of us definitely not an impartial comentator. So PLEASE stop contending that you are analyzing facts only ok?
To follow up on what Ramzi said it is interesting how Idaf divides the Syrian and Arab public into camps of whom they think has or has not killed Hariri. He of course elegantly implies that he is in the camp of “others don’t believe that it’s Syria based on more LOGICAL analysis.
Idaf, please correct me if I am wrong.
It seems to me that your thesis rests on this train of thought:
A significant number of Lebanese (especially Christians) are biased against Syria. They blame it for causing the rain that ruined their tanning sessions on the beach. The fact that this same group is leading the charge of blaming Syria for the Hariri murder, it must therefore follow that Syria could not be the real culprit. The main accusation is coming from a tainted and impartial observer with years of proven prejudices. If they think Syria did it, logic follows that Syria could not have actually done it.
VOX,Bashing taxes does not equal bashing the country,you should know better ,the only reason they raise taxes on tobaco and alcohol is because they call it sin tax and the majority of americans do not mind .they use the money to balance their budgets.
Ehsani.. here are my corrections!
"A significant number of Lebanese are biased against Syria."
..correct.
"The fact that this same group is leading the charge of blaming Syria for the Hariri murder"... STOP.. I did not say that! The Sunnis are the ones leading the charge at the moment.. for many Christians it's a moment they have been waiting for for decades (a moment where they are not the sole "Syria haters" in Lebanon). Many of them of course are convinced that Syria did do it, many are brainwashed (the ones that blame Syria for the Tsunami and the Bird Flu!).
"it must therefore follow that Syria could not be the real culprit.".. obviously this is not what I said the first part of the argument you made was not correct.
"The main accusation is coming from a tainted and impartial observer with years of proven prejudices. If they think Syria did it, logic follows that Syria could not have actually done it."...
I can't see how you reached this argument from what I wrote! I did not make any connection between accusations against Syria and any sectarian divide in Lebanon. I was not trying to say anything about the Hariri murder! I was just presenting my understanding of the Lebanese sectarian mindset and on Junblat's "support the winner" tactics he's utilizing now against Hizballah.
My conviction that Syria did not do it does not have anything to do with who in Lebanon believe this or not! As I see it, Lebanon was (as it was historically) the battle field. This time it was used for settling the score with Syria and more importantly, Hizballah (as Syria used in the past for score settling)... I elaborated on this earlier in a letter to Josh.
ramzi,
All I'm trying to do (and I had a long debate with Ehsani in an earlier post about this) it to try to understand what's happening without becoming a victim of media and political campaigns or even my own grievences. I'll tell you this: I used to believe that Syria did it up until the first Mehlis report came out. The report itself shook my belief that Syria did it. Everything since then made me convinced even more that Syria's innocent.
My feelings are that Syria(ns) did kill him. But that the west’s hostility against syria would have remained whether he was assassinated or not. Hariri's death and other Damascus errors just accelerated it. So I am torn between these to poles
Idaf,
No internal Hariri power struggle or anything: if you read the news regularly, you would have known that Bahaa did not want to inherit his father's political duties; he decided to run his father's business, while Saad was willing to step up to the plate and assume the political power his father had. As for Bahiya, who did an amazing job after her brother's death, did not want to continue with the heavy responsibilities laid on her and is actually doing a lot of the dialogue work with the Palestinian refugee groups in Saida in the name of the Hariri family.
To IDAF:
I am wondering if you truly are looking for "justice", and a 100% proof for applying Justice, and if that is so, to please tell us where are your activities regarding the great injustices your regime, the Assad regime commits every day, and for the last 35 years against innocent Syrians, whether they have committed a crime or not, and without any proof. Please tell us where are your activities to defend Dr. Aref Dalila for example, who was tried for the same accusations the other 9 of his friends were tried for, only to get double the sentence his friends got? Where are your activities to defend Justice for the ordinary people? while you are making a huge efforts here to defend that same regime that is committing all of those injsutices.
Just few weeks ago, your regime presented a "Tourist guide" to the highest Regime Court (the Most special court) because he pointed to his tourists while passing by the Court that this was the "special National Security court"?
علمت لجان الدفاع عن الحريات الديمقراطية وحقوق الإنسان في سوريا، من مصادرها أن الأجهزة الأمنية قد اعتقلت مساء الخميس الواقع في 23/12/2005 المواطن السوري غياث حباب والذي يعمل مترجما و دليلاً سـياحياً من أمام محكمة أمن الدولة بدمشق، على خلفية ، كما يعتقد، أنه كان يشير للسياح على موقع المحكمة. وقد تمت إحالته إلى فرع الأمن السياسي بدمشـق.
إن ( ل د ح ) تدين اعتقال المواطن غياث حباب ، وترى فيه اعتقالا تعسفيا خارج القانون واستمرارا لدور الأجهزة الأمنية في ملاحقة المواطنين وانتهاك الحريات الأساسية التي يضمنها الدستور السوري ، وانتهاكا لالتزامات سورية بمقتضى تصديقها وتوقيعها على العهود والاتفاقيات والمواثيق المتعلقة بحقوق الإنسان.
Show us your love for the truth as you claim, and you have chosen to defend the regime that commits the crimes instead of defending the victims that this regime commits its crimes against.
I could care less for who killed Hariri except that I am happy that this regime is accused, and it is a rare chnace for this Syrian people to hope for and with of getting Justice from this regime, finally.
So, I say: GO TO HELL IDAF.
and thank you very much
JAM
PS: THIS IDAF uses "neutrality", and "love" for the "Truth" to defend the Regime, and pretends that killing a man in Lebanon, a Lebanese leader is something so absurd for a regime that has survived on killing its opponents who ever they were for 36 years!
You know what is so puzzling? Joshua Landis presented this regime as facing Sunni MBs threat, and that if it goes, the "secular" Syria we know will become islamist Sunni Fundemntalist. Hehehehehe..
From the presence of "many" posters here and for a long time, would any really Neutral observer not see that those who are defending this regime on this Site are Sunnis, not Alawis?
2- IDAf, in addition to his interest in the "truth" from a "neutral" point of view for showing that Assad "could not have killed Hariri", while being absenct from any other discussion regarding the crimes of the regime, also showed his love from a "neutral" point of view the minute Khadam defected from the regime, and exposed a long dossier about Khadam while he never published such a dossier prior to that defection. So, Idaf, your game is exposed.
Thank you again
JAM
JOSHUA FAGGOT LANDIS...you fuckin retard. Again, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF BASHARS ASS AND TRY AND THINK A LITTLE. YOU CAN KEEP PROTECTING THE REGIME ALL YOU WANT BUT THERE DAY IS COMING SOON...LOL THIS WILL BE FOR THE "ARAB CAUSE". ASSAD AND HIS REGIME WILL BE GONE SOON, WHEN THE AMERICANS START DROPPING BOMBS ON THEM! KEEP WRITING YOUR SHITTY POSTS AND AS USUAL ONLY THE DUMB UNEDUCATED FUCKIN DIRTY SYRIANS WHORES AGREE WITH YOU. AGAIN, WHEN THE BOMBS START IN DAMASCUS HOPE YOUR THERE! GO FUCK YOURSELF!
LONG LIVE LEBANON!
Finally, it seems that it is now an accepted fact that the Syrian economy is in bad shape.
The President is about to announce the latest 5-year plan. Even the most renowned economists in the world admit that they cannot accurately forecast economies more than one quarter ahead. In socialist Syria, the old Soviet era 5-year plans are still alive and well. For a more official (non-EHSANI2) prognosis of the Syrian economy, you can visit:
http://www.syria-news.com/readnews.php?sy_seq=19762
The Gosplan is still alive in Syria? That's the reforms the Syrians have been asking for! A soviet-era plan!
It's a good thing, let the system rot from the inside. The 2006-2010 period will see a quick collapse of the oil production. I hope that angry & hungry crowds will bring this regime to an end.
Idaf
That was good and interesting comments you made on patriotism in Lebanon and the various players.
You observed: “A patriot in Lebanon is defined by his/her hate to someone rather that his love and services to the country.”
You got me thinking about patriotism. Is it ever useful outside war situations? Is it even a brain virus that brings on war and provides a foothold for dictators?
Asad and co are furiously pulling “patriotism” cards out of their pack and smacking Syrians around the head with them. I was particularly disturbed by something Ehsani2 pointed out on January 20 in Bashar’s latest speech.
To quote: The following words Bashar's departing words: "Gentlemen, the war which has been imposed on us is a long war because it is a war of identity and fate"
People through history have warned of patriotism's negativities and dangers. I just went to a site that has quotes from the famous (http://en.thinkexist.com/) and looked up “patriotism”. Very interesting - and damning. The only positive comments seem to come from politicians.
The famous genius Albert Einstein said: “Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!” Others said: “Totalitarianism is patriotism institutionalized”, and “Patriotism ruins history” and “Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen”
But the game was explained best by big time Roman conqueror and colonizer Julius Caesar:
Beware of the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry, [who] infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How will I know? For this I have done. And I am Julius Caesar.”
I’m now off to read about the Syrian economy (link in post above) and depress myself further.
The last posting shows why ActiveListner always brings something to the table when he is on this forum. THE only thing left for the regime now is ActiveListner’s deck of patriotism cards that it keeps flashing and reminding its subjects about. Regrettably, so many of them are efficiently programmed to oblige and heed the call.
As Samuel Johnson said:
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"
Off topic but I found it interesting and hope you do too:
'Fox "News," which in fact is the most thorough-going dispenser of war propaganda since the Nazi Third Reich, provides a parade of bought-and-paid-for-consultants who assure credulous audiences that Osama bin Laden has forged an alliance with Iran, which will soon be providing al Qaeda with nuclear weapons.'
http://www.counterpunch.org/
Here, I feel again confused as to how my stand should be vis a vis Khadam/Brotherhoods/Damscus declaration, and the bashar Assad regime. That is because I am reading an interview for Khadam who was welcomed by the above entities, talking about his time, his cleanliness, honour, etc..., and the goodness of Hafez Assad and his regime. Only Bashar Assad and bashar's regime are bad now.
How can any one follow this logic? The MBs, the various kinds of Oppositions in syria have always maintained a position not only against the hafez Assad Regime, but have also accused that regime of all kinds of treasons, corruption, oppressions, etc..., and yet they are now welcoming Khadam who in all of what he has siad sop far did not condemn his time, or his bosse's regime, but in fact praised all of that, and he is welcome against Bashar (Whom I consider much cleaner than his father's regime).
Where am I going wrong? I hate both, but still think that Bashar has at least gotten rid of many of those Old Guard really corrupt personalities, but he is unable to unedrsand that his iron fist is facing the good people in the jails he filled Syrians with. This is not any different from his father's oppression as well.
Thank you
ActiveListner,
Very interesting quotes. I agree. If it wasn't for politically incited patriotism for example, there would have not been a war on Iraq (and tens of the thousands of lives might have been saved). If it wasn't for patriotism-focused media campaigns Bush would not have been re-elected and the Americans would not have been discussing their new Mukhabarat system. On the Lebanese front, patriotism (which is defined mostly on the sectarian terms I mentioned above) is successfully used as method to manipulate the crowds by politicians in their struggle to power (whether it's the "hate Syria", "hate Israel" or "hate other sects" patriotism).
On the Syrian front (as almost everywhere else in the world), patriotism has been always used by politicians to rally the crowds against the leadership. Add to that, as Ehsani once correctly mentioned before:
"From the day of birth, every single Syrian grows to learn the following:...
- Syria will not bow to Israel until it gets its land back
- Syria is the only and last guardian of the Palestinian cause
- Syria is targeted by outsiders"
While these pretexts have been used by both Assads dictatorships as means to rally the public and cover up corruption it does not mean that they are not true (partially at least) or that they are not perceived by the public as a patriotism benchmark in Syria (even to Syrians abroad who have never been exposed to the "non-stop CD played by the regime")! The thing that you missed too Ehsani, is that this benchmark was always there in Syria. Since the independence, long before the Baath came to power, such benchmark was used in Syria to judge patriotism... where else in the world (other than fifties' Syria) would the people take it to the street and bring the government down peacefully and force the president to resign and give his position to an external leader that practices such benchmark (Nasser)? It is something in the Syrian mindset, not a new thing introduced by the non-stop hit songs on the Baath CD back in the sixties. Nasser of course, took advantage of that patriotism and produced his rules to accept ruling Syria under public demand: All the free political parties must be dissolved in Syria and the free media should shut up.. Since then the Syrian extremely liberal and democratic political life did not recover.. the Baath of course took advantage of the situation after Nasser and made it sure that it would be the only party in control under those rules.
Jam,
Although, I don't owe you any explanations for my views, I'll answer your one sensible question and overlook the emotional noise you keep inserting in your posts that usually makes it hard for me to comprehend your actual point!
Now.. please try to open your mind and understand this.. I'm NOT DEFENDING no one. I couldn't care less about Hariri or Bashar. All I care about is my country. As everyone in the world thinks that finding the "truth" is so important in deciding Syria's future and many parties having plans in hand for what to do with "this Syria" if it killed Hariri and what to do if it didn't.. I find it very reasonable for any Syrian to try to find out what really happened and form an informed understanding. Despite that what we're dealing with could vaguely be called facts, it's always better to base opinion and decisions on informed ignorance rather than uninformed "arrogance" based on the notion of "I know it all" that some adopt. Worse are the people whose rule for understanding the world is "IF EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING SO THEN IT IS SO!!!".
Unlike you JAM, I will not be satisfied if the regime is punished by external powers pushing their agenda (against the Syrian national interests) for all the wrong reasons. If the reason for punishing the regime is just because it killed Hariri (even when it didn't) then you will have a plethora of opportunists (that are not necessarily better than the regime) jumping to exploit people's grievances to get to power (as is happening in Lebanon). The same mistakes and errors would be repeated because they were not judged.
I do prefer real reform that would bring people to justice, make things better and avoid any mayhem that radical change may bring, I want the regime figures to be tried and punished by Syrians for the injustices and mistakes it committed... that's a kind of justice that would first: guarantee that every wrong doing is exposed and eventually makes it hard for the new people in power to repeat. Second: Syrians would have peace of mind that way, so we will not be sitting on a time bomb to be manipulated by external powers again in the future (similar to what's happening to the Lebanese today after 25+ years after the war and them still being manipulated by the same warlords in the same way that took place prior to the civil war).
I will not nod obediently to anyone that denounces the regime for his agendas (be it Bush, Khaddam, the MB, Junblat or anyone else) and I will not damn anyone that support this regime just for that (specially decent people like Hizballah). My enemy's enemy does not necessarily make it friend as my enemy's friend does not necessarily make it my enemy... it's not that simple. I don't want to end up after 40 years of corruption and oppression with a Syrian versions of Junblat and Jeajea (such as Khaddam) that are capable of taking advantage of people's grievances to get to power. I also would not want to replace this regime with another corrupt bunch of external powers stooges that work against the Syrian national interests (as in Iraq and increasingly in Lebanon).
As for the things I did to make things better, I can proudly say that I did more than cursing all over the blogosphere! I'm not running an election campaign so I will not list them here!
That's how the story ends. It's been clear... right?
Idaf,
I am sorry but you are analysing matters in Lebanon with a neutral Syrian neighbor in mind.
However many of us do not agree with this. In fact, we believe the Syrian leadership--like other regionals powers--was, in part, responsible for the civil war in Lebanon from its early days.
In other words Syria was part of the civil war equation. Some analysts even argue that the Syrian entry in Lebanon was planned by Damascus before the "exitential threat" of the christians by the left and the Palestinians; that Damascus to put it differently played an active role to make itself needed in Lebanon.
In the name of fighting Zionism, colonialism, Imperliaism, Evil US, etc... the retarded minds have governed Syria for over 40 years, and committed the most severe crimes against it and its people./
In turn, and in short to all the facts that those like IDAf want to continue to deceive us with, in the name of Patriotism, I say, very plainly, and in brief:
I love the US, I love colonialism, I love Imperilaism, and I hate those who attack them in the name of patriotism, freedom, socialism, etc....when they are no less than pure criminals with truely retarded intentions.\
Iraqis are a billion times happier even with the violence Baathies and Muslims are causing. Stop using Iraq to scare Syrians. The worst any people can live under is not civil war, but a retarded regime such as Saddam's and the Assads.
History goes forward. Communism did not lose because it did not have enough amrs to defeat the US. The US won because it is the light for the world, not theories that speak of equalities and reserve special places for the retarded to be above all others.
And this link is for you, Idaf:
http://www.rezgar.com/debat/show.art.asp?aid=55491
http://www.rezgar.com/debat/show.art.asp?aid=55523
Idaf,
You make some powerful points, some of it all too true, giving plenty to think about.
What happened in Syria in the50’s and 60’s and where it was leading in terms of political and social development is one of history’s most poignant “what ifs”. The filthy choking weed of power at gunpoint stopped it flowing.
I believe “patriotism” and “nationalism” and sense of belonging with a group or location is part of human hard wiring. That is why it is stomach-churning to see crude dictatorships like the Asads seize on it and use it as a tool for manipulation and distraction. To have stupid police state apparatchiks determine which perspectives and priorities are “permitted”.
It’s been pointed out by a range of people many times on this forum that the average Syrian has zero personal interest in – let alone would be prepared to die in a ditch for - “Palestine”. And that if every single Israeli packed up and resettled in Austria tomorrow, it would not make life any better or different for Syrians.
That cheap CD played non stop by the Asad regime is weed-choked rubbish - not one millisecond of it relevant to nation building or dynamic social, political and economic issues. Do they have any CDs that focus on what actually matters and happens inside Syria? Any tracks on real things that serve the welfare and interests of 99.9% of Syrians?
If the “leaders’ of Syria had simply done what their job description required and concentrated on doing the best for Syria and Syrians these past 40 years imagine how high the country today could fly.
Now we are left with those scary potential future options sketched by Idaf. And the disturbing truth of Julius Caesar’s words still being played out 2,000 years later as though the game has hardly changed for Syrians – except the guys playing it now are less competent and civilized. Excuse me for repeating it:
“Patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry, [who] infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How will I know? For this I have done. And I am Julius Caesar.”
Stop praising each other when you are working for the same boss, you idiots!
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
“All I care about is my country”
You think we don’t?
“I want the regime figures to be tried and punished by Syrians for the injustices and mistakes it committed”
How? You think we prefer non-Syrians? Please explain to me how Syrians will try this regime.
“I will not nod obediently to anyone that denounces the regime for his agendas”.
“I would not want to replace this regime with another corrupt bunch of external powers stooges that work against the SYRIAN NATIONAL INTEREST”.
How convenient to use “Takhween”, a favorite past time - I am a nationalist who loves his country. I prefer to have one of my own to step on me for 40 years than accept foreigners and whomever works with them help remove him. I prefer my people to instigate change. How? When? Who? All silly questions in the grand picture of:
THE NATIONAL INTEREST:
Idaf,
Please explain to me what actually is our National Interest?
What are our goals as people?
What are our achievable and measurable objectives?
When and how do we plan to achieve them?
Mr. President,
These questions are for you too. Next time you give us a speech, please give us a glimpse of where we are heading. Please comfort us that you at least can answer one of the above, if not all
Idaf,
With all due respect, your views and pronouncements may indeed make you sleep better at night by giving you the warm and fuzzy feeling that you are a true nationalist who loves his country while others are more prone to selling out.
While you spell out what you consider to be our “National Interest”, let me offer you mine:
“Increase standards of living through maximum sustainable growth, using free markets and the ingenuity of the Syrian people”
Present and future generations of Syrians will not be asked to sacrifice their lives and their economic dignities to correct the mistakes of their past leaders. Our people are sick and tired of hearing lies .Our economy is in shambles. Our army is decaying. In truth, our regime knows this. For the past 33 years, not a single bullet has been fired towards our stated enemy. With every passing day, our enemy gets stronger while we get weaker.
This spectacular charade has to stop. Does anyone really think that the Syria of today is remotely capable of confronting the enormous challenges it faces ahead? Is the Syria of today remotely capable of delivering to its people the basic civil and economic dignities of life? Is the Syria of today capable of living within the international community of nations? Is the Syria of today on the right side of history?
I submit to you Sir that the answer to all the above is a resounding NO.
Blind "nationalism" and "patriotism" ended Syria's experiment with democracy. Syria had the first free elections in the Arab world in the 1950's, and destroyed all for the sake of "unity" with a naive and simple minded Nasser.
It's probably best if Syria withdraws from the Arab League and stop its pan-arabism. What a worthless experiment it has been.
A True lover for his country could not possibly accept or condone the continued rule of this regime one extra day.
Indeed, it is precisely in the country’s National Interest that this governing party be disposed. Regrettably, the Syrian people do not possess the means to do it on their own. The regime has perfected the art of survival better than most. They change the constitution at will. They use the draconian emergency laws to render what remains of the constitution irrelevant. I would be interested to know how many countries in the world restrict in their constitution power to only one single party. Unless you are a member of that party, you are forever excluded from power. While on topic, the constitution also excludes all non-Muslims who are deemed unworthy of leadership. They are all second-class citizens in their own countries.
Sir,
The National Interest dictates turning a new page. Ending this 43-year long dark chapter in the country’s modern history is the top National Interest. If the 20 million subjects of this regime (the word citizens does not really apply) need help, then so be it. Rejecting this outright is working against the National Interest. Reforms and change from within is a utopian dream. The only change that will take place is to one-day change the leadership from Bashar Asad to Hafez Asad Junior.
hehehe
I see one American crazy man has influenced your spelling of the word Assad, to become Asad as he inissts on writing it that way!
It is Assad
Ass and Ad perhaps, but never Asad.
Good catch. First time I spelt it this way.
"While on topic, the constitution also excludes all non-Muslims who are deemed unworthy of leadership. They are all second-class citizens in their own countries."
What do you mean by leadership? If you ment presidency then you are correct. Syria's constitution does'nt even state that Islam is the official religion. In fact, the religion of the president was not in the constitution until Syrians protested. So the people willed a constitution which is less progressive and democratic and this before decades of Baathist rule. So let's be careful. It's rare to meet a Syrian in Syria who wants and knows what democracy is. Most expat Syrians would'nt even know what it is. Many would take the extremism of the MB or the Neo-Cons. There's little middle ground.
Christians are much better off in Syria than most other Arab countries. I could'nt believe it when I heard that Christian and Muslim students can't live together in Kuwait and that's a country favored by the Neocons. If the neocons were bright, I know that's hard to imagine, then they would be helping Syria to democratize more and become a fortress against the backwards gulf Arab states, but alas they're not interested in true democracy. They're interested in money and the safety of Israel.
"They're interested in money and the safety of Israel.
"
Thank God!
The world still has good and honest peopl who care!
Ugarit,
The Syrian constitution of 1973 requires that the President be Muslim but does not make Islam the state religion.
Do the Christians of Syria enjoy freedom of religion? Absolutely.
Should we exclude them from the Presidency?
Though it is unlikely for a Christian to assume the Presidency of the country in an open election, do we as a society need to categorically exclude them by the power of the constitution?
You say it was the will of the people that imposed the change. I wish the very same people were also able to stop the constitution from besting the Baath party with “leadership functions in the state and society”.
There's nothing wrong with worrying about the safety of Israel but it should not be done at the Arabs' expense.
Israel's zionism is a huge security risk and liability for the West, Jews and for the arab world and the middle east in general. Once Zionism evolves to a civilized ism the security risk would deminish. Also Wahhabism/Salafism is also a very big danger, if not more so than Israel. Frankly I would rather live in Israel as a second-class citizen (since I'm not jewish) than live in Saudi Arabia as a "Muslim".
EHSANI2 asked:
"Should we exclude them from the Presidency?"
Absolutely not! It was wrong for the "masses" to push for this. It's just interesting how progressive the Baath was when it came to the issue of religion but had to bend over to the "masses" on this issue. It just shows how afraid the Baath was/is afraid of religion, and rightly so. The will of the people does'nt imply democracy. If the constitution were to be re-written now the Baath would not dare to exclude Islam as the official religion.
I'm afraid that the neocons are going to destroy the fragile mosaic we call Syria. Of course, that's their objective. This is a fact.
Ugarit,
Even though I have made the same comment about living in Israel before, in front of a Palestinian living in Saudi mind you. But I have come to the realization that it was just a statement meant to shock. My girlfriend is Saudi that lives in Riyadh and even though it is quiet boring and restrictive. If you have the right open-minded family as she has you would live quiet comfortably and happily
But i definitely share your concern about Zionism and Wahhabiaism
Tarek
http://innocent-criminal.blogspot.com/
EHSANI2 said
"You say it was the will of the people that imposed the change. I wish the very same people were also able to stop the constitution from besting the Baath party with “leadership functions in the state and society"
That shows you that the people were not really interested with democracy. Most of these people are'nt against al-diktatoria but against the one that's against them.
The Assad geenartion, always looking how the Syrian people don't deserve, nor understand democracy. I wonder what they are themselves!! Are they really convinced in their minds that Assad alone and his family,and associates in crimes deserve to be Syria's king and ruling class for ever? I wonder how these peoples minds were constructed. I can not even conceive that human minds can be such fixed and illogical. Before they preach to us how the Syran people do not understand nor desrve democracy, they should find an excuse for the crap they are talking about.
Do they believe that only the Son of a Bitch Hafez Assad was born from an educated mother and a fantastic wise father? Only Hafez Assad, and now Bashar Assad are born leaders, and they alone know about democracy, and about ruling?
What is even more astonishing is that this , let's call it CD as some do is being sung by people like Joshua Landis, an American teacher who teaches history, and who belives also that a people among hunderds on Earth, alone does not understand, nor deserve that democracy. He speaks and writes as if he was born in the same truly criminal and retarded family minds that Assad and his generation (posters here ) were born with.
Just one explanation of why you are such a retard will suffice for my curiosity!
Please !
Ugarit,
Your and my beloved country was destroyed well before the word Neocons was invented and it will keep on being destroyed well after the so-called Neocons are gone.
Let us please stop the blame game. The real answers are always the simpler and closer ones. Taking a look in the mirror is a good place to start.
Our task at hand is to find a framework that allows our people to prosper and enjoy their basic civil and human rights and dignities. Let us first do that before we start blaming others for our catastrophic shortfalls.
"Our task at hand is to find a framework that allows our people to prosper and enjoy their basic civil and human rights and dignities. Let us first do that before we start blaming others for our catastrophic shortfalls"
Thank you.
I'm printing this out in giant script and sticking it on the wall.
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
I find myself trying an Arabic version in Syrian flag colors.
Any good graphic designers out there?
EHSANI2:
You're absolutely correct about the blame game. So how do we start building the framework?
رياض سيف يعلن عن تشكيل حزب جديد
ويدعو الرئيس الاسد الى التعاون مع لجنة التحقيق الدولية
تعهد عضو مجلس الشعب السابق رياض سيف الذي أطلق سراحه مؤخرا بأن يعمل على جلب الديمقراطية إلى سورية بطرق سلمية، ودعا الرئيس بشار الاسد لأن يتعاون مع لجنة التحقيق الدولية باغتيال رئيس الوزراء اللبناني الاسبق رفيق الحرير
Source
"Riad Seif, a former member of parliament, said he was setting up a political party and hopes to win Western support to help develop Syria and regain the occupied Golan Heights."
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060124/wl_nm/syria_dissident_dc_1)
He's obviously a gambling man. I'm watching with breath held to see how far down the road this gets before a wheel falls(or is blown)off.
Ehsani, Ehsani!
I think that you have been in the comment section for too long that you also started taking any disagreement as some kind of "Takhween"! I did not imply that "I love my country therefore you don't if you disagree with me".. not even remotely! We might have the same goal, but we are arguing about different methods to reach that goal.
We eventually want the same thing, but I would not agree to the method of bringing in external support.. forget it. It's not an option if you really want a better future in my opinion (again that's not "Takhween"!). Bring external support and the new people in power will definitely be in debt for that power and would have to provide concessions on the sovereignty and financial fronts.
So you're for external radical change and I support internal gradual one... You see Syria as an old building that should be demolished and a new bright skyscraper to be built on its place (and you don't mind paying mortgage for decades to come), I see Syria as an ancient castle that should be renovated and fixed by its people.... You want the fast and easy way (regardless of the outcome), I think that this fast way is not in the best interest of Syria's future.
I do understand that my way would take more time, but I argue that it would bear sustained prosperity and stability, while your way has a low success probability and a horrible ROI. I definitely learnt my lesson on that matter from the Lebanese and Iraqis (unfortunately the Lebanese seem to not have gotten it and are repeating the same mistakes that brought the Syrians to control in the first place.. this time it would be someone else.. new lords.. new patronage networks!).
Ehsani.. what's really a "utopian dream" is thinking that the external help would be a form of charity, while it is in fact becoming indebted to a brutal mobster that you have to pay back by his terms (even it means sleeping with him!).
The notion of transforming today's Syria to a full democracy immediately ON ANY EXPENSE is as naive as what Syrians in the 50s did when they wanted Arab unity on any expense.. we are still paying the price till this day for that hasty emotional step. I will not support another hasty emotional step that my grandson would be regretting 50 years from now.
For me a better future does not only mean a better economy! The economy is a major part of the problem for sure but there are lots of other issues that would have at least the same importance in achieving a better future.
A sudden removal of the security fist of the regime would bring free media and free political life, but it would definitely bring Al-Qaida, Jund el-Sham and the MB. The power gap that will take place by a sudden removal of the central government would also definitely bring the Iraqi Kurds, the Israelis and the US to incite the Kurdish "patriotism" and "national" emotions, every party for its own agenda. You would have the Dick Cheneys of the world fueling this to have a "Kurdish rich section" split out of Syria and become under the influence of the Kurdish stooges they have in northern Iraq. I'm sure that any power gap in Damascus would also give a chance to Israel to expand the occupied territories in Syria to reach more water resources and mountain tops in Jabal el-Shaikh. It would stupid if they didn't do that. they will definitely use the "buffer zone" excuse to stop Palestinians (and maybe Al-Qaida too) who will be launching attacks from Syrian territories after the central security grip in Damascus loose power. These are some of the nightmares that would definitely come with the "radical change" theory you adopt.
You have to stop thinking in terms of Good and Bad and start thinking in terms of Bad and Worse in the solutions we have to our problem. It's not us against the regime, it's us against the regime and it's enemies too!
As for your questions, I think that you made them to make your point so I'll skip them as you already did a good job in doing so. I agree though that Bashar should address them as you rightly requested. While I agree with much of what you said, I have to make this note: "For the past 33 years, not a single bullet has been fired towards our stated enemy".. not a factual comment as fierce battles were fought in Lebanon against Israeli occupation (my friend's father died there in a battle with the Israelis).
Ramzi,
With all due respect, you are talking like those Lebanese I mentioned who wake up everyday saying to themselves: "What am I going to blame Syria for today?".
I can understand this to a great extent:
-You talk to a simple minded Syrian about the economy, the Golan and freedoms and every other daily problem and he would blame Israel.
-You talk to a simple minded Lebanese about the economy, the civil war, freedoms and every other daily problem and he would blame Syria.
It's our way of averting responsibility or as Ehsani put it "make you sleep better at night"!
"Damascus to put it differently played an active role to make itself needed in Lebanon".. as everyone else did since the independence! If you read the Lebanese post independence political struggles objectively, you'll clearly see how Lebanon was always a political battle ground for external powers. Syria did not invent the "president installation" technique in Lebanon. This was practiced by the Egyptians, the French, the Americans among others when Syrian politicians were involved in bloodless coup after another in Damascus. While Syria was involved in the war as every other regional power, I don't think any sensible leader in the world (in a situation similar to Hafez at the time) would allow military presence of the Israelis, the Palestinians, the US, France and at least several different Lebanese mercenaries some supported by Saddam, some by Ghaddafi and some by Khomeini and some by Israel) to exist on its border and not take action. If Syria was really involved in starting the war along with all other major players, it was the only party that was involved in bringing it to an end when Israel, Saddam, Ghaddafi were still trying to fuel it.. at least be honest and give it that credit.
Ugarit,
It wasn't Nasser fault as much as it was our grandfathers (or fathers and mothers depending on your age) who took it to the street and accepted to exchange all the freedoms that the US citizens did not have yet back then for "unity".
Jam said:
"Iraqis are a billion times happier even with the violence Baathies and Muslims are causing. Stop using Iraq to scare Syrians. The worst any people can live under is not civil war, but a retarded regime such as Saddam's and the Assads"... then how can you explain that 30% of Iraqi Christians that used to live in Iraq under Saddam are now living in Syria according to the UNHC?! Not to mention the other 300 thousand "happy" Iraqis from other sects that chose the Syrian Baath over the American freedom in Iraq? I'm not trying to scare anyone with Iraq as you accused me.. Bush is doing a great job in this. The 500,000 (UNHC registered.. while the numbers are thought to be much higher) happy and freed Iraqis that fled Iraq to Syria (thanks to the "light for the world") seem to disagree with you JAM.
As for Riadh Seif's announcement, I think he just lost a considerable amount of support of both Syrians and the western support with this announcement. You simply can't please everyone. The US will not support him now 'cause of the Golan thin and many Syrians already started to have second thoughts on him because of the western support thing (read comments in Syrian websites)! What a way to start a political campaign!
Idaf, Idaf!
You did not answer the single most important question/s:
How do you plan on allowing your crew into the old castle to start the renovation project?
Who is going to grant you the permit?
When will you get it?
With such a tough landlord who does not want you to renovate, how do you possibly plan to force the renovation?
Your objectives are noble. With all due respect, however, you are short on the critical details. You seem to think that time is on our side. Sir, it is not. You seem to think that the economy is important but not critical (paraphrasing). I categorically disagree. I am happy to tell you why, but I don’t think I need to.
ActiveListner, I didn't understand your request, but you can find all the Syrian flags on Moubayed's website (see Joshua's blogroll).
I don't like Moubayed but his website is interesting BTW.
Ehsani,
I know this.. I will NOT ask other tough landlords to help me in (and then take over the castle again from me)!
I don't claim to have a full-fledged plan, but I know a disastrous method when I see one.
The "let the chips fall where they may" way is not an option for me, as I can see where they would fall.
Idaf,
This was a good answer. Any enjoyable discussion, as always.
Excellent analysis of the situation by Idaf. But for your plan to work (restoring the castle from within) you need to either motivate the regime to fix itself or you need to force it to do so.
The American pressure (whether good or bad-intentioned) doesn't seem to be weakening the regime, instead, the Syrian people have been enticed into the nationalism game. Besides, it's unlikely that the US will try a full-fledged offense on Syria, given that its cost-to-return figures are in the red. So pressure is not working very well, if at all.
As for motivation, I don't see anything that would motivate Bashar & Co to change their ways or let go of some piece of the pie, as long as the Syrian people stay docile and domesticated.
I think the only way to change the regime in a way that's not disasterous is either by:
1) Popular uprising (highly unlikely)
2) Act of God (equally unlikely)
So as I see it, unless Bashar & Co. 'feel' like giving the Syrian people anything, we ain't going nowhere, we are truly under their (lack of) mercy.
Oh, this just in: the gov. has just increased the price of gasoline by 25%, and the price of cement by 50%. I guess internal reforms have just started...
The lack of reform in Syria inspite of the Baath congress recomendations might indicate that eithe the Baath party is not in as much control as some people think or that Asad is so afraid of making a wrong move ,he should understand that the people of Syria realy like him and propably love him and will forgive him if his heart is in the right place.
Idaf,If what you wrote is a policy statment for your movment ,please count me in with you.What a resposible vision.that is encouraging.
"It wasn't Nasser fault as much as it was our grandfathers (or fathers and mothers depending on your age) who took it to the street and accepted to exchange all the freedoms that the US citizens did not have yet back then for "unity"."
Nasser was against the mult-party system and forced syria to outlaw all the parties. He was a good intentioned man but a naive one. He assumed having a good leader was enought and it's not. The foundation must be good to take care of the not so good leaders.
Idaf
I enjoy your analysis and your balanced replies to hysterics on this blog.
Your observations on the lebanese mindset are fascinating. I have never seen anyone expressing so well the addiction the lebanese have to always blame the others for all their problems and the hatred that seem to be their main political drive.
Thank you
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